2008 Heisman Sam Bradford!!!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 13, 2008 8:17 PM CST
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PrintOklahoma Sooner Sam Bradford claimed the heisman tonight. He actually got less 1st place votes than Tim Tebow but was able to edge out Colt McCoy for the award. Were #1,in the National championship, and have the Heisman locked up.Only one thing left to do. Win the National Championship!!!!!
Go Sooners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GO SOONERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GO SOONERSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!
CRIMSON AND CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BOOMER.................................................!!!!!
I cant wait to hear what the UT fans have to say about this. One things for sure yet again were just that much better. Horns down as always!!!
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Sounds like Sooner math when 35 is better (greater) than 45…
Bradford is a very good quarterback, but he better get out of Dodge before his offensive line is gone. Tebow and McCoy are superb and great leaders.
Uh...
So can we include Colt’s rushing stats too :).
Stats are misleading if woodenly looked at on their own. That being said, I have no problem with Bradford winning it, as I really do think he’s a great QB. It’s one of those years that you wish more than one player could win it (or you wish you could take it away from joke winners from the past to give it to a player in this year), but alas, that can’t be done.
by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 16, 2008 12:43 AM CST up reply actions
Here's the voters numbers coutesy of cbssportsline.com
Heisman Trophy voting
Player, School 1st 2nd 3rd Total
Sam Bradford, Oklahoma 300 315 196 1,726
Colt McCoy, Texas 266 288 230 1,604
Tim Tebow, Florida 309 207 234 1,575
Graham Harrell, Texas Tech 13 44 86 213
Michael Crabtree, Texas Tech 3 27 53 116
Shonn Greene, Iowa 5 9 32 65
Pat White, West Virginia 3 1 8 19
Nate Davis, Ball State 0 1 8 10
Rey Maualuga, USC 2 1 1 9
Javon Ringer, Michigan State 1 0 5 8
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
I'm more amazed that Rey Maualuga got votes.
Congrats to Bradford and all. As much as I wanted McCoy to win it, it’s a worthless award. A trophy that Chris Weinke can win and Vince Young cannot is not a legitimate trophy.
by HornPossessed on Dec 13, 2008 9:20 PM CST up reply actions
exactly
what a texas fan would say.
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
Not just a Texas fan
Most CFB fans who follow these things closely know that it’s a overblown award. Believe me, we WANTED Colt to win it, but the fact that he didn’t doesn’t make this Texas fan lose a wink of sleep. It’s a nice award, but it is too overhyped for its own good. Make no mistake, it’s greatly influenced by silly politics and media attention. The fact that Tebow got more #1 votes than both Bradford and Colt shows this.
I think Bradford is a deserving player and I have no problem with him winning the award. I think he was more deserving than Tebow. However, Colt winning the award wouldn’t have changed my opinion of the Heisman one bit. It’s not about who’s the “best” player or the MVP. It’s about who’s the most “outstanding”… which just means who the media likes to hype up. In this case, the media loved all three players and so it was a close race. That’s just the way the award works, unfortunately. I didn’t even bother to watch the ceremony.
by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 16, 2008 12:35 AM CST up reply actions
Grats to Bradford
At least this Texas fan thinks that Bradford had a solid case to make, though I thought McCoy’s resume was just as deserving, I honestly can’t be that upset with Sam winning it.
What dumbfounds me is that Tebow can get the most first place votes, and still finish third.
I don’t see or understand the case for Tebow in the slightest. If you think a dual threat QB is more worthy of the award, Colt did just as much on the ground, while crushing Tebow in the air. If its a pure QB, he doesn’t even come close to Sam. Does the SEC really hold that much sway with the national media? How can 309 supposedly informed voters think that Tebow outdid both Colt and Sam this year?
by BoddickerIsClutch on Dec 15, 2008 3:35 PM CST reply actions
Here's why
McCoy doesn’t compate to Tebow:
Very similar rushing yardage with Tebow rusing for 12 TDs and McCoy for 10. Slight edge Tebow.
Tebow has thrown for 28 TDs and 2 INTs. McCoy threw 32 TDs and 7 INTs. Again, slight edge for Tebow.
Now consider that (a) McCoy had no supporting cast and didn’t have to share the rushing load with 4 other quality RBs who combined for over 2000 yards and 21 TDs.
Next, consider that (b) Tebow’s performance came against some of the best defenses in the country, while McCoy’s came agaist an array of swiss cheese defenses.
Overwhelming advantage Tebow.
There’s a reason that half the QBs in the Big 12 are re-writing the record books, and it’s not because 5 of the best QBs in NCAA history just happen to be playing the same year in the same conference……
Wouldn't that make Tebow selfish
Since he has 4 quality RB’s? God I can’t believe I’m defending McCoy here but he didn’t lose to a unranked team like Tebow did. McCoy didn’t have near the team Tebow did and he put up great numbers. Bradford and McCoy will play on Sunday as QB’s what will Tebow be?
Miami bound...
Passing:
Colt is hardly the first to play in a spread pass happy offense with quick slants, yet he is still obliterating the completion percentage mark for all of college football ever. Its ridiculous to give the slight edge to Tebow on passing when Colt is setting a record in passing by a full 4% points.
SEC Defences vs SEC Offences or Big 12 Offences vs Big 12 Defences:
I dont know if CC machine has brought in numbers here to dispel that myth but I know there have been several posts about it all across the SBN, all I will say is, every non-Florida SEC game I watched this year made me want to gouge my eyes out. The defences may be better, but the offences are incredibly worse on average. Stats for each group are inflated. Tebow and Colt did have one common opponent in Arkansas (an SEC defence no less!), which they played in consecutive weeks. Their stats?
Colt: 9 rushes 84 yards 2 TDs; 17/19 passing and 3 TDs
Tebow: 12 rushes 39 yards 0 TDs; 17/26 passing 2 TDs and 1 INT
Team game vs individual:
Im not sure what your argument really is here. That Tebow had better team mates so his similar numbers are more worthy? That seems backwards to me. The more weapons you have, real or perceived, the more the defence has to key in on. Do you think anyone was spying our running backs? Or giving any Texas WR the same attention that Percy Harvin got? The one key to Texas, the only key, was to stop Colt, and really no one did outside of one terrible half of football in Lubbock.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Dec 15, 2008 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
My point was
Last season, Tebow had no running back. The result? 895 yards and 23 TDs.
He blew away the field and won the hardware. This year his stats are “down.” the reason is we now have 3 solid RBs. He doesn’t have to score on every play.
Completion percentage can be a misleading stat when you don’t throw downfield.
Look at the overall QB rating instead.
What is the best defense that McCoy faced this season? Oklahoma. They are ranked 65th. The best defense he played is in the lower half of the 119 D-I programs.
McCoy’s numbers came against the following ranked defenses:
65th, 72nd, 73rd, 79th, 86th, 87th, 94th, 99th, 113th, 114th and 115th
Tebow’s numbers were comparable and came against the following defenses, only one of which (Arkansas at 73rd) was ranked lower than ANY team that Texas played the entire year!
3rd, 4th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 25th, 28th, 29th, 36th, 37th, 59th, and 73rd.
At least Bradford played against TCU (2nd ranked defense). McCoy played absolutely nobody.
Basing the assumption of the worth of a defense on total yards is a fallacy.
Do you think there are 60 teams that have a better passing offense than Florida? Of course not. General stats like that are meaningless in College Football. There are too many teams, too much variation in schemes and talent. That works for the NFL, where the quality of opponents varies on a smaller scale, but its basically useless in a league of 119 teams (more due to FCS opponents). Speaking of FCS, I dont count them as opponents.
Lets look at a better analysis then, and I’m going to do this without knowing what the outcome is. Lets look at the opponents passing efficiency on the year, and then what that efficiency would be without playing Tebow or Colt. If Tebow wins out, Ill concede that he deserves the votes he got, and at least it will be backed up with some semblance of meaningful statistics.
Ok finally done. I look at the opponents passer rating defense as a way to negate good or bad defenses. On a rating which is based on attempts, this way of looking at it should more or less negate the issue that I have with using total yards as a basis. Colt may have played some worse defenses, but how either he or Tebow performed above those defenses norms should give a better indicator of their performance independent of the quality of defense, especially when considered on a per attempt bases, as passer rating is.
Ill concede Tim is as deserving as Colt. Looking at this, they both essentially had the same affect on opponents defensive passer ratings. So looking at it from a rate perspective, they are essentially even. Colt has more overall numbers, but the rate is what should be looked at, and there they are essentially tied. You might notice I tossed out the Citadel. You can take issue with that if you will, but I don’t consider FCS opponents a valid test at all.
So to summarize, as I got this thread off to a Colt/Tim tangent; grats to Sam, a worthy winner of three worthy contestants.
If anyone wants the data to add Sam’s number in, I can email you the spreadsheet I made, but its long past time I get back to work.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Dec 16, 2008 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
Tebow will be spreading the Christian gospel around the globe
But that is completely irrelevent as the Hesiman isn’t based on projected NFL ability, or else, I suppose Stafford would have won it.
And correction….Bradford and McCoy won’t really be “playing” on Sundays. They will be holding clipboards. It’s really easy to throw for tons of yardage and TDs when there isn’t even a DB in the screen shot when the receiver catches the ball. Those plays aren’t there in the NFL – the QB needs to make precise throws. Can Bradford and McCoy do that? Nobody knows – they haven’t had to do it yet.
Tebow didn’t lose to an unranked team….the Florida Gators did. Tebow made his statement after the game and has backed up every word. We play as a team – we win as a team and lose as a team.
See you on the 8th.
Not to harsh or anything
But it is clear you haven’t watched any Big 12 football this year. Both Sam and Colt are deadly accurate with the ball. Anyone with a shred of football knowledge who has watched them play knows that. That doesn’t mean they’ll automatically be successful in the pros, but they know how to throw the ball on this level very well.
And you’re comment above on Colt’s completion percentage is just an offhand comment that isn’t even an argument. Sure, in theory, throwing “shorter” throws should rise your completion percentage. However, it is as easy as you say, tell me: How many other QB’s out there that run similar offenses have a completion percentage as Colt? Coaches must be morons not to throw all the easy short stuff, huh. If you complete that high a percentage of your passes, you can easily march down field and score 40+ points a game. Since other QB’s are NOT doing that, and in fact have never done it, we either have to conclude that the coaches in CFB are totally inept or that Colt is actually good at what he does. I think most, even OU fans, will agree with the latter.
And your point on Colt’s rushing stats is useless. Are you saying we should have thrown out Tebow’s running stats last year simply because he didn’t have a runningback? In fact, Tebow ran an astounding 210 times for a quarterback in 2007, so if we are to follow your logic, that doesn’t mean jack because clearly his stats were getting artificially ballooned since he didn’t have other running threats. I’m guessing you would not want to throw out the mighty rushing numbers of your hero. For what it’s worth, Colt’s rushing average is better than Tebow’s last year.
Finally, your “argument” makes even less sense because Tebow has more rush attempts than Colt does, and not only that, Tebow has a higher percentage of Florida’s total carries compared to Colt. Colt has more yards per carry, more yards, and more touchdowns per carry. And wouldn’t more “quality” runners give a QB more room to run, making us expect that he should have BETTER numbers?
And BiC is right; woodenly throwing out numbers without taking context in consideration is fruitless. Really, ANY defense will look good playing against the atrocities that were LSU’s quarterbacks.
Also, I’ll bring up Florida’s loss. It doesn’t even compare to Texas’ loss and what Cold did there. Colt came through with the ball in his hands and led a scoring drive to take the lead. Tebow had the ball at the end of the Ole Miss game, at home, and could not.
Look, I like Tim Tebow and I hope he whips the Sooners. However, don’t even pretend that Bradford and McCoy don’t deserve the respect they’re getting for the work they’ve done this year. If you made an argument why Tebow deserves the Heisman, I’m all years. Saying goofy stuff like “Colt doesn’t compare to Tebow” and the like is just being ignorant.
by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 16, 2008 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
I think you need help interpreting what I wrote
My point with the rushing numbers was simply to show that Tebow’s numbers were inflated last year because he was the only running option. This season, we had plenty of RB help, so his running numbers were way down from last year. Despite that, they still compared favorably to the running numbers McCoy put up this season – when he was esssentially in the position Tebow was last season.
You also totally ignored the point that every defense that McCoy played against was absolutely decrepit. If Texas played us, we would put Jenoris Jenkins and Joe Haden right on the line in your WRs faces and those quick clants would not be there. Also, McCoy would not be able to sit in the pocket for 9 seconds while the Arena League offense runs its routes against the helpless defense. The result would be much like last year where McCoy got pummeled repeatedly.
I watched plenty of Big 12 football games this year, including the matchups of all the 11-1 teams, and the rivalry games at the end of the season when all the 11-1 teams were jockeying for position against each other. What I saw were good offenses trading touchdowns all game against helpless defenses.
I think if Texas played an SEC schedule this season – even with our conference way down from years past, that McCoy doesn’t sniff any of his current numbers.
Fnally, McCoy threw 7 picks this season. Tebow has thrown 8 in two seasons. So much for the accuracy argument.
This is where we can't agree
Because Colt doesn’t have ANYWHERE NEAR Tebow’s rushing attempts as last year, so clearly it is not the same situation. I’ll agree that Tebow’s stats were greatly inflated last year because Florida didn’t have running threats and Meyer simply wanted to balloon his stats, but that is not the same situation as this year for Texas who tries to spread the ball around three to four different backs. In fact, Colt doesn’t have Tebow’s rushing attempts this year either, so it is clear that while Colt remains Texas’ leading rusher, it is not done so by design (if you do indeed watch the games, you know most of his runs come off scrambles and not off design). How can you compare the situations then when Tebow nearly had 80 more attempts than Colt does this year? Who’s to say that Colt, who has a better rushing average than both of Tebow’s years, wouldn’t replicate such numbers if we just tried run keepers inside the ten?
You also totally ignored the point that every defense that McCoy played against was absolutely decrepit. If Texas played us, we would put Jenoris Jenkins and Joe Haden right on the line in your WRs faces and those quick clants would not be there. Also, McCoy would not be able to sit in the pocket for 9 seconds while the Arena League offense runs its routes against the helpless defense. The result would be much like last year where McCoy got pummeled repeatedly.
You better watch closer than that. If you watch our games, Colt doesn’t have nine seconds to camp; while our pass protection has upgraded greatly for last year, Colt has still had to do a lot of improvising, and he’s dangerous on the run. He definitely does not just camp in the pocket and shop. Again, if it so easy to stop that attack, why haven’t teams done so? It is of course the whole chicken or the egg argument: Are the Big 12 defenses so bad or the offenses so good? It is a similar situation for the SEC, because people wonder if the defenses are that good or if they’re just playing a collection of mediocre to bad offenses. And as many coaches point out, hitting 80% of your passes is hard to do in practice with just a stand-in defense, much less a game.
I didn’t “ignore” your point on supposedly decrepit defenses, as I alluded to BiC’s post above that you did not answer. He tried to actually put context in with the defensive numbers and showed why both quarterbacks are excellent. I simply reaffirmed his position that context is needed; with 119 teams, it’s useless to just throw at a ranking in pass yards.
Oh, and I would have loved to play the Gators, as it would have been a fun game (I think the “SEC is awesome” argument is way overdone but I think Florida is really good). Alas, we don’t have a playoff.
What I saw were good offenses trading touchdowns all game against helpless defenses.
Texas vs. OU was 45-35. Texas Tech vs. Texas was 39-33. The only ridiculous score among the three games was OU’s 63-21 romp of Tech. After all, since Florida scored a lot of points on the likes of Georgia, LSU, Vandy, etc., why can’t we assume these were just overrated defenses? Heck, Georgia got lit up by G-tech (from the “great” ACC) and LSU gave up 31points… to Arkansas. Again, when you play teams like Auburn (I know Florida didn’t), it might be easy for an SEC defense to look good.
And finally, why just concentrate on picks? There’s a reason there are other aspects of a QB rating. Colt has more passing yards, nearly identical yards per attempt, more touchdowns, and a higher completion percentage. Why does this automatically negate the accuracy argument? You’ve got to better than that. After all, Colt has thrown seven picks in only 375 attempts, which is a pretty darn good number. Bradford has only six.
You’re going to have to do better than the tired “SEC is awesome” argument. Fact is, both Bradford and McCoy had great seasons, and probably better seasons, than Tebow did. That’s no shot at Tebow, as he himself also had a great season, but I think 1. Bradford 2. McCoy and 3. Tebow was justified. In any case, like I say above, it’s an overrated award; go whip the Sooners on the 8th, and that 20 pound piece of hardware becomes irrelevant.
by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 16, 2008 6:31 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, it's already irrelevent
I think we all can agree that the award is a total farce when so many voters didn’t even put Tebow on their ballots. Anywhere. Left him off completely. Obviously, there was a lot of manipulation going on out there.
I guess we’ll have to revisit this argument after the bowl season…although I’d much rather watch Texas play Alabama than Ohio State, as we all know how pitiful OSU looks against fast offenses, i.e. the last 2 BCS games.
Our game against OU and the Ole Miss/Texas Tech will tell us a lot….
Thanks for the lively discussion, and I hope the Sooners aren’t tiring of our Tebow vs. McCoy argument!
Last point
Isn’t it kind of ridiculous that the Heisman vote isn’t after the bowl games? That would make so much more sense…but then again, I guess so would a playoff system of some sort.
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